[Somehow I neglected to post this one. Thanks to Jane Peranteau for bringing it to my attention.]
Thursday, September 27, 2018
1:20 a.m. Proceeding with questions.
From “Lake and Tree”:
[I have been waiting for a good invitation to ask. Often when I read or hear channeled material, I am thinking “yeah but…those are just a lot of words that are interesting maybe, if they are clear, but words don’t teach…right.” So my question is: If the otherside really wants to impart true higher understanding of the nature of reality, why create all the endless books, recordings, seminars and blogs when a few higher state experiences could get the job done in an oh so fuller and meaningful way? And why shouldn’t that experience simply be given to those who request it for the asking by the higher-self? It certain happens for a few in that way, even when they don’t ask sometimes. Why not for anyone who does asks?]
[TGU:] “Just a lot of words. Words don’t teach.” We beg to differ. Words do teach, but they can only teach those who can respond. We reiterate: Words are sparks, not bricks. They may lead a person to be able to break through to a new understanding, but they don’t do so in any mechanical fashion. If they did, memorization would be the key.
However, we realize that you are saying something more than this, and we will address the deeper objection/concern. But we continually need to return to remind people, words are to inspire, not to mechanically convince. No one ever came to more life by a process of logic, though for some logic may have helped clear the way.
Really, this is the answer to the question in full: Enlightenment is not conferred, but grasped. It is not given, but achieved. And really, the very word enlightenment is (or may be) misleading, as it implies a separation between this and the rest of life. All your life is a process of attaining and incorporating intuitive understandings that then become the basis for further development.
Now, the rest of this question requires an answer that may be taken to be harsh. It is not meant in that fashion, but it may easily appear so. if that is how it strikes you, we suggest that you go over it again (and again, if need be) until you can see it in a helpful rather than a chastising sense. We are not into chastisement.
“If the otherside really wants to impart true higher understanding of the nature of reality.” Is this phrasing meant to imply doubt that we in the non-3D truly want people in 3D to wake up more? Why in the world would we devote the effort of communicating all this, if our intent were not to assist? Do you think we are sadists, watching tortured animals? But if this is not your meaning, then pray tell, what is it?
Again, the emotional connotation of “an oh so fuller and meaningful way” appears to be sarcasm. Is that the intent? If so, what purpose does it serve? We would argue that it is a defensive strategy, one telling oneself, “I’m not willing to be fooled; I can see through all this.” But if so, there is a logical contradiction implied. If one addresses a corrupt or untrustworthy source, surely one should know better than to expect a meaningful and helpful answer. But if this is not the case, then what purpose is served?
Understand, we are not quibbling with the way anyone chooses to express a question. We are pointing out what may be unsuspected (unconscious) cross-currents. In short, we imagine an internal contradiction between interest in the source and deep skepticism of the process.
Be that as it may, the question is rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of choice, awareness, and assistance. We return to the bird-in-the-egg analogy we used a while earlier. The effort of breaking out of the egg develops the muscles the bird will need if it is to be able to fly. Helping the bird out of the shell would not assist it, but cripple it. You can’t grasp a thing until you are ready, and readiness requires effort. You cannot produce something out of nothing; life is transformation, not merely magical arrival.
Arrival isn’t the right word, but I can’t find the right one, and I don’t want to hold things up.
Arrival, appearance, the idea is there. Life transforms, it doesn’t just magically produce out of nothing. Now, it is true, this is too flat a statement; there are nuances and seeming exceptions, but by and large it is accurate enough for this particular question.
Yes, a higher state experience is worth all the “books, recordings, seminars and blogs.” Only – how do you think one comes to be able to experience such a thing, but by preparation and work? It may be that much of the work has been done before you are born into this 3D life, so that, to all appearances, someone got a great gift out of the blue and without paying his dues, so to speak. But that is more a matter of appearances (or rather, of hidden causes) than of fact. You may rely upon it, regardless how it may appear, the universe plays fair. There is a logic behind the process of who draws the winning lottery ticket, so to speak.
The short and inadequate but perhaps productive answer to “Why not for anyone who does ask” is, the very asking is part of the necessary work. Sincerity of intent, perseverance in self-transformation, continual re-sculpting of one’s nature as faults are addressed – all this is not making the best of a bad situation, nor is it settling for second-best, nor, least of all, is it some kind of injustice.
As I think about the question in this light, I realize that I felt uncomfortable about its tone from the beginning, and now it reminds me of a discussion I had so many years ago – 20, maybe – on an old internet forum called the Voyagers Mailing List. People were saying, why weren’t Bob Monroe’s books, and tapes, and programs, free? And nothing I could explain about the needs of any organization made any impact: They wanted it; it promised self-development; it should be free, or it wasn’t fair.
And, on the surface, that wouldn’t be a bad argument. Fortunately, however, what people need is always within their reach – only, they must do the reaching. Viktor Frankl was deprived of everything, only to discover that his very cell, and starvation, and perpetual deliberate injustice and suffering, could be turned to account, provided he did the reaching.
Now again, our response may strike some as unsympathetic; we can only say that it is not.
Nearly 50 minutes. I guess, not time enough for a second question.
No, better come to each question fresh. Otherwise there will be an unnoticed tendency to elide.
Okay, well, thanks as always and see you next time.
Frank,
This post has added (greatly) my growing recognition of TGU’s ‘humanity’, approachability, and desire to be as helpful as they can.
– it was very impressive how TGU pointed up (potential) problems with the worldview this question came from, openly and honestly but without blame or castigation. I understand this worldview ALL too well, having live much of my life there.
– LisaC’s comment (earlier) that her interactions “ … seemed to indicate they’re not perfect …” is something TGU has said and I have also gotten from guidance. As she said, I LIKE that!
– TGU’s clear invitation for any of us to ‘talk’ to them directly felt very sincere.
– and the information flow over (just) the last several years gives strong support to their question “Why in the world would we devote the effort of communicating all this, if our intent were not to assist?”
You and ‘they’ have created a wonderful place for people like us; as always, my thanks.
Jim
Thanks, Jim, but let’s remember, you and all the other commentators have your own part in this joint endeavor. I am as glad for that as you are.
Well…I do sincerely thank you Frank and TGU for a response to my seemingly challenging question. Though the response seemed less TGU and more Frank at times since my very question seemed to bother and my intent often misunderstood.
Please let me clarify and explain where I am coming from. Of course I know from a lifetime of experience that words, books, seminars, blogs, can truly inspire, enrich and change one’s life for the better. I have read and been engaged with most of the better spiritual stuff for 40 years. My first introduction was the Seth material and their seminars. (I still see them as the gold standard for channeled material but maybe only because they were my “first love”.) Then the Monroe books and tapes and hundreds of other books, media, meditations and experiences etc. I have also bought all of your books Frank and read the blog from the beginning and have always liked most how you went in depth and beyond the “new age party line”.
Now, I thought I asked a very sincere straight-forward question with no implied sarcasm. However, the following experience, as background, may help clarify the question more:
Forty years ago when I had just read ONE Seth book and “Journeys Out of the Body”, I took Bob Monroe’s challenge when he said “Don’t take my word for it, try it yourself!” So, I did and the very FIRST time I sat and meditated, something with up my spine and it scared me so I stopped. Next morning I tried again and I had the classic OBE with the extreme vibrations, noise, and conscious travel beyond the only world I had every known and brought back a feeling of love, joy and awareness which stayed with me for days. It changed my whole perspective of the nature of reality. I was no longer an agnostic to say the least!
I learned more and at a deeper level in that first experience than what any book or media could have conveyed. But then soon, I could not even have a OBE without so much effort and time invested, it just became not worth it. And over many years, I have enjoyed lots of books, meditations and seminars, dream journals, my own “channeling” and explored my self and beliefs many times. But higher altered states of experience still felt out of reach without a prolonged, intense, willful, and maybe expensive undertaking. My belief was and still is, altered states may take some effort but it should not be marthon of work.
So, when TGU writes: “Enlightenment is not conferred, but grasped. It is not given but achieved.”
I can only say, looking back, my first experience WAS conferred and given, because it was easy with little prior knowledge or prep at that time. It was not about being highly “spiritual” or being well read or working on the self. (Just a fyi…I am not saying an OBE is the same as the formal “enlightenment”. I am not talking about for total enlightenment.)
So, in that light, I asked my sincere question: If the otherside really wants to impart true higher understanding of the nature of reality, why create all the endless books, recordings, seminars and blogs when a few higher state experiences could get the job done in an oh so fuller and meaningful way?
To me, from my experience, it would just seem to be a better way to teach with some experiences alongside the words. I hope I have clarified my question. Thanks for reading.
You say, “I thought I asked a very sincere straight-forward question with no implied sarcasm.” This raises an interesting point: The guys aren’t all-knowing. They did ask, and I am sure not rhetorically, if your intent was sarcastic. Maybe they misunderstood you. However, they also said, “We are pointing out what may be unsuspected (unconscious) cross-currents…. an internal contradiction between interest in the source and deep skepticism of the process.” As you re-read what you wrote, are you sure they were wrong?
Your own (very interesting) experience doesn’t seem to me to prove what you think it does. After your initial startling success, further efforts produced only frustration, leading you to conclude that your initial experience was conferred without prior effort. But the guys addressed this very point, saying, “It may be that much of the work has been done before you are born into this 3D life, so that, to all appearances, someone got a great gift out of the blue and without paying his dues, so to speak. But that is more a matter of appearances (or rather, of hidden causes) than of fact.”
In any case, it seems to me that your initial experience was the teaser, designed to spur you to a lifetime of effort, which perhaps it did.
LakeandTree,
I appreciate your post; it has helped me work with guidance on a number of things.
As I said, I feel very familiar with the quandary you articulate from my own life experiences. My only comment about you/your life is to echo what TGU/Frank/LisaC say: might be worth while looking at/working on ‘what are you searching for?’ … LisaC’s question “What do you seek, and why?” sums it up perfectly.
The ‘sparks’ from your post pushed me into a dialog with guidance about something I’ve considered for months: how easy it is to misinterpret information from guidance through unthinking/unconscious ‘distortion’ caused by an image of the ‘channel’ (‘role model’).
TGU (and Seth and Elias and other teachers) have been clear: they ‘want’ EACH of us to work toward better and better connection with our OWN non-3D self/aspects. But it is easy to grow into feeling we should do it like the pioneers/role models that message ‘comes through.’
Should I
– channel information like Jane (from Seth) or Mary (from Elias)?
– ingest mescaline (like Carlos) in search of knowledge?
– try for OBEs (like Bob) to search the universe for answers?
– look inside to bring out information for books (like Frank)?
After years of considering the above ‘methods’ (and many others), I had to find my own way of making connection and making it part of my everyday life. I’ve never had an OBE or lucid dream. I’ve never written about information that come through except here on Frank’s blog. I never talk about my connection to guidance, except very occasionally and briefly with my wife.
But that connection (first consciously in TMI Guidelines ‘99) grows steadily, accelerated in the last several years through work with Frank’s blog and books, and Elias’ voluminous meandering sessions. No enlightenment (after eight years of ‘sitting’ with Zen), no OBEs, no great message for the world … just ever-increasing connection with life and easier daily living. Seems like that’s what I’ve been searching for.
Jim
Jim,
I have read many of your insightful comments. You are a very active member here. Yes, this blog is a good place to share one’s thoughts out loud and “hear” it speak back to you. I don’t share much here but I have other people and outlets to share, mostly freely with.
LisaC did ask a good basic question, and I enjoyed reflecting and bringing forth my most honest answers to her in a comment.
Yes, early on I thought I should try to emulate those people and/or methods of guidance I was most influenced by. But over time I felt I should just do what comes easier for myself, though all of these methods are built within all of us like the “Clairs” are. But usually one is more forthcoming naturally while others may come later.
What worked for me was typed channeling/guidance (since my handwriting and spelling was so indecipherable – smile.) And recording a dream journal came easy, though sometimes also uninterpretable without help. Also simply having a sense of knowing by listening to my thoughts and body in a calm way.
But I still like to get guidance from a more prolific source about a nagging question that I have built up over the years. But if the format is one short question and answer, it can be rather limited. So I usually don’t ask unless I can have a real two-way dialogue where one can craft, as the dialogue moves forward, a more fuller and precise question and therefore get a more fuller and precise answer.
I have only recently discovered the Elias work. I have so enjoyed his/her recordings of people discussing very personal and everyday life “dilemmas” along with Elias’ gentle and very personally insightful responses.
You mentioned you haven’t had enlightenment yet, in spite of Zen sitting for 8 years. Thats funny! Well I am sure you are in good company. Thank god we don’t have to live up to those classic “overachievers” like Buddha- smile. You sound like you are happy enough.
Namaste 🙂
LakeandTree
Hi LakeandTree,
Thank you for initiating and participating in shared discussion! Reading through here, a question has popped up and nudges me to write and ask you.
You mentioned above “…I know from a lifetime of experience that words, books, seminars, blogs, can truly inspire, enrich and change one’s life for the better. I have read and been engaged with most of the better spiritual stuff for 40 years. ”
Forty years….phew! That’s amazing! I’m only at 30, so please bear with me if I’m not comprehending anything obvious to most – I really do seek comprehension, and feel no shame if I appear dunce-like. : )
The question that popped up after reading your comment was this:
What do you seek, and why?
If, like many folks would, you feel that is a personal thing that you prefer not to share with strangers – no worries! I only wish to hear anything you want to share. Other’s perceptions and experiences expand my awareness – I learn much.
Hi LisaC,
I don’t mind your question at all. I think the answer to what I seek and why, would be similar to many others. I guess I have always been naturally curious about many things and yes a bit sensitive and interested in what was really true.
In my 20’s I concluded that all that bible and religious talk, at best, could only be conjecture and opinion. Because after all, how could anyone alive experience anything outside of this world. But then after that first OBE, I proved to myself that one could have real experiences beyond this world and therefore there may be a real basis for all that spiritual stuff.
After that, I felt on fire for a long time for a deeper and personal understanding. I enjoyed the quest and still do. Why? Because, as both a scientific and creative type person, I simply loved moving toward what felt more true and away from so much that seemed false and shallow. I wanted to build my belief system and thus life, around something grounded in a truer reality.
All of this may sound a bit high-minded but I always loved the saying: “The truth shall set you free!”
And I will just add: “But it may first trigger defensiveness in yourself and others.”
I enjoyed talking with you Lisa. May you enjoy your seeking also.
– LakeandTree
What Jim said got me thinking about what shape guidance has for me. How is it affecting? One thing that is very clear is that I’ve gotten a lot of humble pie to eat. Almost every insight puts a beam of light on some occasion where I myself have callously ignored someone who (in retrospect) is probably in same kind of plight than I am. It is blood-curdling to see years afterwards how I have failed to respond, failed to connect and missed an opportunity to grow. And yet, this is how I weed out the judgements I have sown. So that another kind of life can get light and energy. I never would have imagined myself saying this but humble pie is not bothering me anymore. I got too familiar with worthlessness as having my shortcomings in clear view got me judging myself, but just a bit ago came to see it is yet another judgement weed that takes space and energy from things I want to grow.
Happened to look at a note from years back about intention, how I want to direct my life. Then I wanted to know truth in me and others, and still love. Seems I am still at it. Seems there is no end to layers of delusion that can be washed away. Now I would add creatively exploring and expressing the widest possible scope of what a human can bring to consciousness. With benevolence and without harming. Because it is written in my bones that we have more capabilities than we use now. How can I bring that to life? Like Jim, no OBE’s or other spiritual attainments here – just getting knowings I felt a deep longing for.
Deep gratitude for the inquiry LakeandTree started, and whatever Jim says is always getting my sparks to move. And LisaC, such deep insights you have, so happy to see you are alredy here, when it took many of us almost a lifetime. And Frank – I am realising we are your apprentices. And you have really put me on an intuition superhighway. And we are also getting training to speak about it here. And this has given me the courage to at least mention inner guidance in social situations and I have had many occasions where I have found friends instead of the enemies I expected. A very big shift has happened during this apparenticeship. You deserve more gratitude than I can generate. Hmm…yet another reason to keep growing.
Re guilt and shame and even regret for our past mistakes, a couple of thoughts. (And, as my daughter would say, “Ask me how I know!”)
First, the actions were first-tier, our reaction was second-tier, and the only thing that ultimately counts is our considered third-tier reaction, the way we change the way we live as a result of our consideration of those actions and the results of those actions.
Second, I come more and more to accept what the guys said somewhere (or maybe it was Rita), that in the afterlife, after we get past our initial judgmental look at the things we regret, we come to a position of realizing, “That’s the kind of thing that happens in 3D.” That is, we get a little better perspective on things.
And third, thanks for the thanks, but you all can have no idea how much it means to me, every day, your accompanying me on the journey. Really, it makes all the difference.
I’m having such an appreciation for this conversation! “Then I wanted to know truth in me and others, and still love”–Kristiina, you’ve named my intention as well, and maybe everyone else’s. And, Frank, the three-tier reminder worked well for me here. The level of honest reflection on this thread has really shed some light on my own understandings. Thanks so much.
(p.s. –and Jim, I’m still thanking you for Elias.)
Jane P
Begin Opus.
; )
Wowww! Neat-o-rooni! What a pleasure to find so many new “comment jewels” while Comment-Mining here this morning! (That, and my coffee is tasting particularly yummy, too – sigh, it’s a GOOD day!)
LakeandTree, thank you so much for taking time to sort through your thoughts and then write them here to share with everyone. Some of my thoughts on what you have said:
“After that, I felt on fire for a long time for a deeper and personal understanding. I enjoyed the quest and still do. Why? Because, as both a scientific and creative type person, I simply loved moving toward what felt more true and away from so much that seemed false and shallow”
Ditto.
Interesting that you brought up “scientific”. I have a love of science, yet still have an opening for that which can not be physically measured, to exist. I’m not interested so much in what we (present day humanity, as a whole) “know”, but what we DON’T know, and what we don’t know we don’t know…and I wonder if that is a trait that was born from my (also) having experienced events and phenomena that do not follow our “known” laws of physics, and can not be explained……..yet! (grin).
((Btw, if anyone would enjoy trading stories of these types of experiences, as well as thoughts about their impacts upon the experiencer – I’m in! I have gained way more insight from the perspectives of others in these things, than from my own……which makes sense, as I am limited by my own internal experiential “filters”… ))
Further, I wonder if those experiences that don’t fit into our “known” reality, also fuel or even create, the insatiable hunger for a greater understanding?
For me, I seek several things. First, I seek to become more wisely compassionate, and more compassionately wise. To me, they are different things, and both vital to my process. Second, I seek greater understanding of the nature of reality, even though I’ve learned enough to grasp that I’ll never even come close to understanding a micro-particle of the totality. If I can achieve a “micro-particle at the end of a larger infinite micro-particle” by the end of this life, I’ll be very pleased with myself. (another grin). I have come far enough to begin to sense the enormity of existence/reality. I also have a repulsion of delusion/falseness, and (thank you, Sociology/Social Psychology Class) am just now learning the “extent of the extensive” delusion we exist in. It is hard-wired in us. Those built-in “filters” we have, they are sneaky little dickins – tough to skirt, and highly unpleasant when skirted, yet……truth, depth……irresistible!
LakeandTree, you also said “‘The truth shall set you free!’ And I will just add: ‘But it may first trigger defensiveness in yourself and others.’”
Yes – indeed! Thus, the “highly unpleasant” I mentioned. It makes me think of Kristiina’s “humble pie” – I wonder if the more we can break free from the effects of our ego, the more we can understand and learn? I suspect ego may be “part and parcel” of the make-up of delusion. Lol – (I have to laugh at myself)…my ponderings always lead me back to a mental image of the “pill scene” in the movie “The Matrix”. Symbolic, not literal. Always cracks me up. (WHO conceived that movie, anyway??)
LakeandTree, I am enjoying talking to you as well. Thank you.
Jim, you shared: “No enlightenment (after eight years of ‘sitting’ with Zen), no OBEs, no great message for the world … just ever-increasing connection with life and easier daily living. Seems like that’s what I’ve been searching for.”
Mmm-hmmm! A helpful reminder for me that all are unique, each of us finds guidance/wisdom in our own unique way. Some have experiences like Jane Roberts, others, like Bob Monroe, etc. And some have not-so-startling, more quiet experiences. All different, and can be seen from different levels. I struggle with this on one level at times, in that I seem to unconsciously default to wanting validation from others, or judging others automatically – “do things MY way – that’s the way that works!!” (Yeah – but for ME, nobody else….) Argh! I know better, but still go there without thinking. (Duh!)
I think of it this way: we all have a unique DNA sequence, right? What if each DNA sequence translated into a unique and specialized “frequency” (a person) that has its own unique needs, ways, and manner of processing? Each (DNA pattern) tuning is infinitely specialized, and as such, one (person’s) pattern tuning (the way they do things, they way they process and experience) just doesn’t perfectly fit any other (person’s) pattern tuning. (For example, you turn the dial on your AM or FM radio, and you only get ONE STATION on a specific frequency….not a whole bunch of stations sharing one frequency…). And therefore – no one DNA pattern (a person…a being….a life form) could therefore fit…. “justify” or “validate” another DNA pattern’s process, or experience…….as well, no one single DNA pattern is the “correct” one. There is no “correct”. There is only beautiful uniqueness. All are following their unique pattern. All contribute their wonderful specialization to the whole. How rich is that! This helps me to remember that the “paths” and “views” and “methods” of others can neither validate my own, nor should I seek to sway them towards my pattern. They exist just as they ought. Helps me to not seek to convince others they need to “follow” me…do what I do….think the way I think. Nor can anyone else completely validate me….only bits of me, likely bits that match other’s bits. However, I can take great pleasure in meeting other pattern-tunings (you guys!) possibly similar in frequency to my own (big grin), as I suspect all commenters here are similar in some ways – as it’s a joy to read you.
Disclaimer: I don’t propose that any other person sees it the same way, and yes, I am a Nut-Bar, but a grinning Nut-Bar!
(Man! What is IN that coffee this morning!) ; )
Kristiina, you kindly said “….so happy to see you are alredy here, when it took many of us almost a lifetime.” More chuckling! It HAS taken me a lifetime – I’m a 53 year “Old Fart, and proud of it – LOL! But you can think of me as a “Spring Chicken” (young person) anytime you want – my ego loves it. : )))))
I sure treasure all that you share, Kristiina, and I’ve learned so much from the insights that YOU bring here! Many many hugs and thanks!
Frank, yes – I too, very much appreciate the referral to the tiers and effects. I have wanted that concept firmly rooted in my psyche ever since I first read about it, and the reminders help. I read it, and think “oh right! …forgot about that….”. It reminds me to “keep my eye on the ball”….the rest is distorting distraction.
Jane P, and all – “Elias”?? Never heard of this. Sounds like something I will be checking out this weekend – THANK YOU!!
Hugs & Gratitude To All!
End Opus.
Thank you – THANK YOU ALL in common. Ditto, Ditto, Ditto.
As to see now (more and more clearly what Seth is telling): “You Create Your Own Reality.”
All the best forever to Frank & All.
This is the conversation that keeps on growing — and giving! I love it! I have reread it half a dozen times now, giving it a fresh read every time someone posts. Pretty cool.
A Google search of “Elias” turns up a musician and a WWE wrestler. That can’t be right. When I added “Mary” and “channeling”, I got Mary Ennis channeling Elias. I also found her webpage, with a GoFundMe to help with her recent surgery. Am I on track?
That’s the one. I get their monthly posts of individual or group sessions and have found them very interesting.
The original Elias site (http://www.eliasforum.org/) seems more user friendly, and (to me) gives more of the feeling of community of the original group. Comments by the transcriptionists (mainly Vicki Pendley) show the dynamics of sessions and a lot about Mary.
The Home page has a number of intro and overview pages, and I found Paul Helfrich voluminous analyses’ (the Digests) useful. The introduction page points to Paul’s comparison of Seth and Elias’ teachings, and to a video of Elias introducing himself.
Thanks for that clarification, Jim. I’m going to go check out the original Elias site. I signed up to receive their sessions and have never really checked out the site.